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eragon
July 10, 2013 at 11:19PM View BBCode
Exactly. Thank you paulcaraccio. Wagner is the greatest shortstop of all time but he played from 1897-1917. The Modern Era is generally recognized as starting from 1920, with the end of the Dead Ball Era. Derek Jeter is the best shortstop of the Modern Era
dirtdevil
July 11, 2013 at 12:40AM View BBCode
Cal Ripken says hello. Also, Ozzie smith, Robin yount, Alan trammell and Tony Fernandez. Heck, I might even have rather had Luis aparicio at short. Until ARods juice use caught up with him jeter was arguably not even the best SS on his own team.
eragon
Smith career .262/.337/.328
Jeter career .313/.382/.448
In the postseason Jeter has put up .308/.374/.465 in 33 series against superior pitching than the regular season. Smith in the postseason has put up .236/.325/.292 in 8 series. I gotta go but I will compare each of the players you mentioned when I have time
July 11, 2013 at 12:59AM View BBCode
First off to compare Ozzie Smith to Jeter is a joke. Smith is probably one of the 10 best fielders ever, at any position, but his career batting average was .262 and had zero power. Jeter's career batting average is 50 points higher!!!! Look at their slash lines AVG/OBP/SLGSmith career .262/.337/.328
Jeter career .313/.382/.448
In the postseason Jeter has put up .308/.374/.465 in 33 series against superior pitching than the regular season. Smith in the postseason has put up .236/.325/.292 in 8 series. I gotta go but I will compare each of the players you mentioned when I have time
eragon
July 11, 2013 at 02:18AM View BBCode
Yount was a very good hitter but only played SS from 74-84 from 84-93 he played the outfield.And like Paul said Tony Fernandez?????? A career batting average of .288 and 94 career HRs. Are you kidding me? Lets move to Alan Trammell a career .285/.352/.415 with 2300 hits, a little over 400 doubles and 185 career HRs. You are obviously a Jeter hater Trammell and Fernandez are not even Hall of Fame level players.
Penguin
July 12, 2013 at 03:02PM View BBCode
Among alltime shortstops, Jeter is the alltime leader in hits, 2nd in HRs and batting average, and in the top 5 in RBIs and OBP. This also doesn't even take in to account his playoff numbers, which are very impressive to put up similar numbers as his regular season numbers. Offensively speaking, I don't know what more people like dirtdevil and other haters want.
dirtdevil
July 12, 2013 at 03:17PM View BBCode
jeter has played a long time in a very good offence. so did phil rizzutto. the issue with jeter in the best of all time conversation is that SS need to play defence too.
dirtdevil
July 12, 2013 at 03:18PM View BBCode
(again, please don't misunderstand my point. jeter is a first-ballot hall of fame player. but the best SS of the modern era? no. not even close.)
dirtdevil
oh, and here are the LCS and WS stats (avg/obp/slg/ops) of two SS
Player A LCS: 257/.340/.412/.751
Player A WS: .321/.384/.449/.832
Player B LCS: .338/.379/.450/.829
Player B WS: .395/.432/.447/.879
Jeter is player A.
July 12, 2013 at 05:22PM View BBCode
for instance, take the [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml]JAWS[/url] stats. on the all-time SS list, Jeter is 12th, right behind trammel. Arod is 2nd, ripken 3rd, ozzie smith 8th. yount is 5th and ernie banks 7th. jeter is actually closer to jim fregosi than ripken. jeter is a good player who has been on great teams and is deservedly a hof lock. but anyone who thinks he's the best of the modern era is just flat out wrong.oh, and here are the LCS and WS stats (avg/obp/slg/ops) of two SS
Player A LCS: 257/.340/.412/.751
Player A WS: .321/.384/.449/.832
Player B LCS: .338/.379/.450/.829
Player B WS: .395/.432/.447/.879
Jeter is player A.
Penguin
I guess when you're considering the best player at a position of alltime, you have to include defense, but I'm assuming Jeter loses a lot of his WAR points from defense. Also, I'm not saying he's the best SS ever, but I also don't think he's as far removed from it as you seem to think.
July 12, 2013 at 05:34PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
for instance, take the [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml]JAWS[/url] stats. on the all-time SS list, Jeter is 12th, right behind trammel. Arod is 2nd, ripken 3rd, ozzie smith 8th. yount is 5th and ernie banks 7th. jeter is actually closer to jim fregosi than ripken. jeter is a good player who has been on great teams and is deservedly a hof lock. but anyone who thinks he's the best of the modern era is just flat out wrong.
oh, and here are the LCS and WS stats (avg/obp/slg/ops) of two SS
Player A LCS: 257/.340/.412/.751
Player A WS: .321/.384/.449/.832
Player B LCS: .338/.379/.450/.829
Player B WS: .395/.432/.447/.879
Jeter is player A.
I guess when you're considering the best player at a position of alltime, you have to include defense, but I'm assuming Jeter loses a lot of his WAR points from defense. Also, I'm not saying he's the best SS ever, but I also don't think he's as far removed from it as you seem to think.
dirtdevil
July 12, 2013 at 06:51PM View BBCode
oh, he's probably in the early stages of the discussion. top 10 all-time? probably. top 5? I doubt it.
eragon
First off, who is Player B? Secondly, you just gave the perfect example of why these stats like WAR are a complete joke. Again, all due respect to Ozzie Smith, but the man's career batting average is 50 points lower than Jeter's. To say he is better is an absolute joke. And again, Trammell is not even a Hall of Famer. To be honest, if an analyst makes up some formula to determine which player is better than the other, and a player that is not even close to making the the Hall of Fame (Trammell) is better than a surefire first ballot Hall of Famer (Jeter), there is obviously something wrong with the formula. Also, like I said before, Yount played SS for only 10 years out of a 20 year career. A-rod only played SS from '96-'03. Since then he has played 3rd base. Jeter has played SS his entire career. He is literally in the top 5 in every category among shortstops. While Jeter may not be great defensively, he is not as bad as everyone makes him sound. He may not have had great range but he makes less errors than many other shortstops that have much better range. And I know that they don't really mean much, but he has won 5 Gold Glove awards. And Jeter was way more consistent than Cal Ripken, whose batting average shot up and down 20 points every year. In fact their career slash lines AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS
Derek Jeter .313/.382/.448/.829
Cal Ripken .276/.340/.447/.788
Ripken has more doubles,HRs,RBI,BB
Jeter has more runs,hits,triples,SB (Ripken had no speed) Jeter also has a better batting average (35 points higher),OBP,OPS and even though Ripken has a lot more HRs Jeter's SLG is actually 1 point higher (as of now). Talking about fielding, Jeter has 5 GG, Ripken only has 2 (Again, I know they are not a great measurement of defensive prowess). Therefore, it is quite logical to say, as I have, that Jeter is very arguably the best shortstop in the Modern Era.
July 12, 2013 at 06:52PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
for instance, take the [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml]JAWS[/url] stats. on the all-time SS list, Jeter is 12th, right behind trammel. Arod is 2nd, ripken 3rd, ozzie smith 8th. yount is 5th and ernie banks 7th. jeter is actually closer to jim fregosi than ripken. jeter is a good player who has been on great teams and is deservedly a hof lock. but anyone who thinks he's the best of the modern era is just flat out wrong.
oh, and here are the LCS and WS stats (avg/obp/slg/ops) of two SS
Player A LCS: 257/.340/.412/.751
Player A WS: .321/.384/.449/.832
Player B LCS: .338/.379/.450/.829
Player B WS: .395/.432/.447/.879
Jeter is player A.
First off, who is Player B? Secondly, you just gave the perfect example of why these stats like WAR are a complete joke. Again, all due respect to Ozzie Smith, but the man's career batting average is 50 points lower than Jeter's. To say he is better is an absolute joke. And again, Trammell is not even a Hall of Famer. To be honest, if an analyst makes up some formula to determine which player is better than the other, and a player that is not even close to making the the Hall of Fame (Trammell) is better than a surefire first ballot Hall of Famer (Jeter), there is obviously something wrong with the formula. Also, like I said before, Yount played SS for only 10 years out of a 20 year career. A-rod only played SS from '96-'03. Since then he has played 3rd base. Jeter has played SS his entire career. He is literally in the top 5 in every category among shortstops. While Jeter may not be great defensively, he is not as bad as everyone makes him sound. He may not have had great range but he makes less errors than many other shortstops that have much better range. And I know that they don't really mean much, but he has won 5 Gold Glove awards. And Jeter was way more consistent than Cal Ripken, whose batting average shot up and down 20 points every year. In fact their career slash lines AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS
Derek Jeter .313/.382/.448/.829
Cal Ripken .276/.340/.447/.788
Ripken has more doubles,HRs,RBI,BB
Jeter has more runs,hits,triples,SB (Ripken had no speed) Jeter also has a better batting average (35 points higher),OBP,OPS and even though Ripken has a lot more HRs Jeter's SLG is actually 1 point higher (as of now). Talking about fielding, Jeter has 5 GG, Ripken only has 2 (Again, I know they are not a great measurement of defensive prowess). Therefore, it is quite logical to say, as I have, that Jeter is very arguably the best shortstop in the Modern Era.
paulcaraccio
Defensively, Jeter has range limits, but a powerful arm and superior intelligence. He's certainly not a disaster in the field.
I'd say it's between Ripken and Jeter, and Jeter has a much higher OPS. Jeter being the best SS since Honus Wagner certainly seems arguable.
July 12, 2013 at 06:52PM View BBCode
i wanted to inject Ernie Banks into the conversation myself, but I was surprised to learn he played more of his career at 1B than SS. A-Rod is about even with games at third and short, I'd say he'll end up with a lot more at third, but who knows if he'll ever play again at all. Yount played a little more SS than OF, but most of his best years came after the switch. I don't think you can include those guys here.Defensively, Jeter has range limits, but a powerful arm and superior intelligence. He's certainly not a disaster in the field.
I'd say it's between Ripken and Jeter, and Jeter has a much higher OPS. Jeter being the best SS since Honus Wagner certainly seems arguable.
dirtdevil
the problem with saying that ARod played too much of his career at 3B is that the only reason he moved there is that Jeter didn't. there were some rational reasons for that, not least that you don't ask your leader to change positions for an arrogant prima donna, but there isn't much question that at the time ARod was the superior defensive player at short. the better defensive alignment would have had arod at SS and jeter at 2B. jeter's defence is actually a career negative by almost any measure you care to use. the main (I would say only, but that would be starting a superfluous side argument) reason that he has played his entire career there is that he has remained with the yankees. jeter gets a lot of credit for being a team guy and a leader and all that stuff when presented the opportunity to do what was best for the team ripken, banks and even ARod moved to a new position and jeter didn't. I don't think he deserves to get jumped up in the conversation in comparison because of that.
(i'm not a huge fan of WAR either, I think it's kind of dumb, but it is all the rage these days.)
July 12, 2013 at 07:08PM View BBCode
player B, you may be surprised to find, is Tony Fernandez, who was also a vastly superior defender to jeter.the problem with saying that ARod played too much of his career at 3B is that the only reason he moved there is that Jeter didn't. there were some rational reasons for that, not least that you don't ask your leader to change positions for an arrogant prima donna, but there isn't much question that at the time ARod was the superior defensive player at short. the better defensive alignment would have had arod at SS and jeter at 2B. jeter's defence is actually a career negative by almost any measure you care to use. the main (I would say only, but that would be starting a superfluous side argument) reason that he has played his entire career there is that he has remained with the yankees. jeter gets a lot of credit for being a team guy and a leader and all that stuff when presented the opportunity to do what was best for the team ripken, banks and even ARod moved to a new position and jeter didn't. I don't think he deserves to get jumped up in the conversation in comparison because of that.
(i'm not a huge fan of WAR either, I think it's kind of dumb, but it is all the rage these days.)
eragon
Basically what I'm saying. Ernie Banks was incredible, but mostly played at first, not shortstop. Same with Yount (half as SS, half as an OF). Personally, being a Yankee fan (but a well informed one, not an idiot) I would go with Jeter over Ripken. However, if you take Ripken that is fine with me. I never said he is hands down the best since Wagner, I said he is arguably the best. Being top 2 with Ripken is not half bad. On a side note it is tough to judge A-rod. I know he only switched positions because the Yankees were Jeter's team, so to speak. The problem is that he was definitely on steroids from '01-'03 and probably was using on and off for the past 10 years as well
July 12, 2013 at 07:24PM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
i wanted to inject Ernie Banks into the conversation myself, but I was surprised to learn he played more of his career at 1B than SS. A-Rod is about even with games at third and short, I'd say he'll end up with a lot more at third, but who knows if he'll ever play again at all. Yount played a little more SS than OF, but most of his best years came after the switch. I don't think you can include those guys here.
Defensively, Jeter has range limits, but a powerful arm and superior intelligence. He's certainly not a disaster in the field.
I'd say it's between Ripken and Jeter, and Jeter has a much higher OPS. Jeter being the best SS since Honus Wagner certainly seems arguable.
Basically what I'm saying. Ernie Banks was incredible, but mostly played at first, not shortstop. Same with Yount (half as SS, half as an OF). Personally, being a Yankee fan (but a well informed one, not an idiot) I would go with Jeter over Ripken. However, if you take Ripken that is fine with me. I never said he is hands down the best since Wagner, I said he is arguably the best. Being top 2 with Ripken is not half bad. On a side note it is tough to judge A-rod. I know he only switched positions because the Yankees were Jeter's team, so to speak. The problem is that he was definitely on steroids from '01-'03 and probably was using on and off for the past 10 years as well
eragon
July 12, 2013 at 07:27PM View BBCode
I am surprised that Player B is Tony Fernandez lol. Much better numbers than I thought. However, there is still no way he or Trammell are better than Jeter
paulcaraccio
July 12, 2013 at 07:44PM View BBCode
LOL!!! Dirt come on now! You're trying to penalize Jeter for playing shortstop in a best shortstop debate?!?! Saying these other guys could have been better shortstops, except that they played other positions and Jeter doesn't? That is awesome...
dirtdevil
i'm not saying that at all. what i'm saying is you have to take the position switches in context. ripken and arod moved to other positions despite still being able to play SS effectively, because their team asked them to. yount too. (banks I don't remember the motivation for)
jeter did not move, despite arguably being the inferior option at short for his team. I don't think you can penalize ripken or arod in the discussion for that, or use it to iconize jeter because he 'was able to stay at SS'. the fact that he didn't move when he his skill set dictated that he 'should' have does not give him better qualifications at SS than those of ripken, banks or yount. they all played short and are all reasonably defined as SS for their career. that should be the end of the discussion of their positional qualifications.
people like to use the 'jeter has only played one position so he must be a better shortstop than those other guys who had to move' bit to show how 'good' jeter is/was at SS and it's b.s., quite frankly. jeter's argument in the best of all time discussion is based purely and completely on his bat. he was a near league average defender at his best and substantially below average at his worst. I would think that even jeter's most fervent supporters could name half a dozen (or more) better defensive shortstops in under a minute. in all honesty, there are relatively few positions where I feel that defence should really play a major role in the best of all time discussion. unfortunately for Derek Jeter, SS is one of them.
(the others, for me, are probably CF, 2B and C.)
July 12, 2013 at 08:15PM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
LOL!!! Dirt come on now! You're trying to penalize Jeter for playing shortstop in a best shortstop debate?!?! Saying these other guys could have been better shortstops, except that they played other positions and Jeter doesn't? That is awesome...
i'm not saying that at all. what i'm saying is you have to take the position switches in context. ripken and arod moved to other positions despite still being able to play SS effectively, because their team asked them to. yount too. (banks I don't remember the motivation for)
jeter did not move, despite arguably being the inferior option at short for his team. I don't think you can penalize ripken or arod in the discussion for that, or use it to iconize jeter because he 'was able to stay at SS'. the fact that he didn't move when he his skill set dictated that he 'should' have does not give him better qualifications at SS than those of ripken, banks or yount. they all played short and are all reasonably defined as SS for their career. that should be the end of the discussion of their positional qualifications.
people like to use the 'jeter has only played one position so he must be a better shortstop than those other guys who had to move' bit to show how 'good' jeter is/was at SS and it's b.s., quite frankly. jeter's argument in the best of all time discussion is based purely and completely on his bat. he was a near league average defender at his best and substantially below average at his worst. I would think that even jeter's most fervent supporters could name half a dozen (or more) better defensive shortstops in under a minute. in all honesty, there are relatively few positions where I feel that defence should really play a major role in the best of all time discussion. unfortunately for Derek Jeter, SS is one of them.
(the others, for me, are probably CF, 2B and C.)
eragon
July 12, 2013 at 08:30PM View BBCode
I'm not using it to give Jeter a bump because he was "able" to play SS longer than the other guys. I'm saying that over their career perhaps a guy like Yount or Banks was a better player, but if they only played short for 5-10 years out of a 15-20 year career than you can't say they are better SS than Jeter. You can say they were better all around players than Jeter but not a better SS
dirtdevil
July 12, 2013 at 08:38PM View BBCode
I also have to laugh when people use jeter's gold gloves in his favour. jeter's first gold glove was in 2004. do you know who won the two years before that? alex rodriguez. do you know where arod was in 2004? playing third base beside jeter. hard to win a gold glove at SS that way.
dirtdevil
if that's what you're saying, then you are giving jeter a 'bump'. yount played 11 seasons at SS, the most of any position. ripken played SS as his primary position for 15 of 21 seasons. as for banks, he did play 9 years at SS and 11 at 1B but he won both MVPs as a SS, had all of his best offensive seasons there and even won a gold glove just two season prior to the move. most people feel that qualifies him at SS and there's no question whatsoever that his offensive numbers are better than jeter's.
again, don't get me wrong. jeter is a fine player. he's a sure first ballot hall of famer, and deservedly so. he's the best SS the Yankees have ever had (whatever that's worth). but there are tons of guys who were better than him at SS. he was better than most of those guys at the dish, but that makes him a better hitter not a better shortstop. naturally the best of all time discussion has to encapsulate both areas but I don't think it's unfair to say that anyone who is in jeter's ballpark offensively and was a better defender is a better all around SS than jeter. to me that means, ripken, banks, trammel, yount. Smith and Fernandez were so much better than the rest of them defensively it's hard to overstate it. vizquel was almost in their ballpark and aparicio may have been. of the guys I've named in this post jeter is the worst defender by a significant margin.
July 12, 2013 at 09:00PM View BBCode
Originally posted by eragon
I'm not using it to give Jeter a bump because he was "able" to play SS longer than the other guys. I'm saying that over their career perhaps a guy like Yount or Banks was a better player, but if they only played short for 5-10 years out of a 15-20 year career than you can't say they are better SS than Jeter. You can say they were better all around players than Jeter but not a better SS
if that's what you're saying, then you are giving jeter a 'bump'. yount played 11 seasons at SS, the most of any position. ripken played SS as his primary position for 15 of 21 seasons. as for banks, he did play 9 years at SS and 11 at 1B but he won both MVPs as a SS, had all of his best offensive seasons there and even won a gold glove just two season prior to the move. most people feel that qualifies him at SS and there's no question whatsoever that his offensive numbers are better than jeter's.
again, don't get me wrong. jeter is a fine player. he's a sure first ballot hall of famer, and deservedly so. he's the best SS the Yankees have ever had (whatever that's worth). but there are tons of guys who were better than him at SS. he was better than most of those guys at the dish, but that makes him a better hitter not a better shortstop. naturally the best of all time discussion has to encapsulate both areas but I don't think it's unfair to say that anyone who is in jeter's ballpark offensively and was a better defender is a better all around SS than jeter. to me that means, ripken, banks, trammel, yount. Smith and Fernandez were so much better than the rest of them defensively it's hard to overstate it. vizquel was almost in their ballpark and aparicio may have been. of the guys I've named in this post jeter is the worst defender by a significant margin.
dirtdevil
July 12, 2013 at 09:27PM View BBCode
the second-best fielding shortstop of all time may have been mark belanger but he was such an awful hitter (lifetime SLG .280) that it removes him from the discussion altogether.
dirtdevil
July 12, 2013 at 09:39PM View BBCode
unfortunately, the defensive metrics available are nebulous, not widely known and kind of hard to track. but here's another one: [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/tz_runs_total_ss_career.shtml]TZR[/url]. the expected names are at the top- smith (1st with 239), belanger (2-238), aparicio (4-149), ripken (3-176). banks is 22, trammel 12, Fernandez 45, yount is 61st with 25. jeter? his career total is minus one hundred and thirty. now i'm certainly not going to suggest that this metric is perfect, or even good. but not only is jeter not in the same ballpark, he's not even in the same country.