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bobcat73
So Goose got in but Rice is still just a couple short.
I was suprised to see Big Mac not lose ground this vote.
Goose gets in
January 09, 2008 at 07:14AM View BBCode
[url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/01/08/hall.2008.ap/index.html]link to HoF results[/url]So Goose got in but Rice is still just a couple short.
I was suprised to see Big Mac not lose ground this vote.
nbn_ckh3
Best thing to come out of Colorado Springs... sports related... along with Rick Barry.
January 09, 2008 at 08:41AM View BBCode
Good news about Goose.Best thing to come out of Colorado Springs... sports related... along with Rick Barry.
Benne
January 09, 2008 at 10:42AM View BBCode
No Blyleven. No Raines. Another year of HOF censored .
DougB
I like Blyleven a bit more but I probably would not vote for him. He's not any better than Jim Kaat or Tommy John. I'm not sure guys like that should be in the hall. I'm sure we all respect Mike Mussina's career but I sure would not put him in the hall of fame.
Boy the 1980's sure suffers from a lot of fringe candidates. Dale Murphy, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jack Morris, Don Mattingly... all had great careers but there is a solid argument against each one. Heck I probably would not have voted for Gossage. A guy who has 7 very good seasons and 10 mediocre seasons is hard to vote for. If they get 3,000 hits and 2 MVP's like Robin Yount they get in. But a relief pitcher? I'm not sure Goose was much better than Kent Tekulve and Sparky Lyle.
[Edited on 1-9-2008 by DougB]
January 09, 2008 at 02:16PM View BBCode
the last great year Tim Raines had was at age 27. I realize he's considered a poor man's Rickey Henderson. But he just didn't do enough after age 27 to get it. He'll never make it. If he did we'd have to hear from supporters of nice but not great players like Brett Butler and Kenny Loften.I like Blyleven a bit more but I probably would not vote for him. He's not any better than Jim Kaat or Tommy John. I'm not sure guys like that should be in the hall. I'm sure we all respect Mike Mussina's career but I sure would not put him in the hall of fame.
Boy the 1980's sure suffers from a lot of fringe candidates. Dale Murphy, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jack Morris, Don Mattingly... all had great careers but there is a solid argument against each one. Heck I probably would not have voted for Gossage. A guy who has 7 very good seasons and 10 mediocre seasons is hard to vote for. If they get 3,000 hits and 2 MVP's like Robin Yount they get in. But a relief pitcher? I'm not sure Goose was much better than Kent Tekulve and Sparky Lyle.
[Edited on 1-9-2008 by DougB]
FuriousGiorge
January 09, 2008 at 03:33PM View BBCode
Here are some of the on-base percentages Rock posted after the age of 27: .395, .380, .401, .374, .383, .403, .395 (the last three in limited playing time). In 1993, at the age of 33, he posted a line of .306/.401/.480 in 415 at-bats. That would seem to count, for most players, as a great year. His career on-base percentage was only matched by Hall of Famer Lou Brock in a season one time. His career line of .294/.385/.425 compares favorably to Rod Carew's .328/.393/.429, and he stole more bases and was caught fewer times. If Tim Raines doesn't get into the Hall of Fame, then the Hall of Fame simply doesn't care to allow leadoff men in, because Raines was unquestionably one of the best.
Cubsfan13
I was amazed by how nobody even seemed to be talking about Raines. 24%, or whatever he got, is a joke.
January 09, 2008 at 09:23PM View BBCode
You're censored dreamy, Furious. You too, Benne.I was amazed by how nobody even seemed to be talking about Raines. 24%, or whatever he got, is a joke.
DwightKSchrute
Tram:
2365 Hits, 185 HRs, 1003 RBis, 1231 Runs, 236 SBs, .285 AVG
1984 WS MVP
4 Gold Gloves
Oz:
2460 Hits, 28 HRs, 793 RBis, 1257 Runs, 580 SBa, .262 AVG
1985 NLCS MVP
13 Gold Gloves
Now the only two numbers that stand out for Oz are his Stolen Bases and his Gold Gloves. Trammell clearly played Gold Glove defense but he played in a league with Cal Ripken and Robin Yount so he didn't win the award as many times as he would have in different circumstances. Now to the stolen bases, I would submit that a stolen base is only worth something when it allows you to score a run you otherwise would not have. Trammell's lower number of stolen bases clearly didn't prevent him from crossing home plate almost as often as Ozzie did.
So what keeps Ozzie in and Trammell out? Is it that Trammell quietly went out on the field and did his job while Ozzie did back flips? That's the only reason I can find and I find it a clear shame to keep Trammell out. Take nothing away from Ozzie. He was indeed excellent.
January 09, 2008 at 09:43PM View BBCode
Alan Trammell is my snub. Compare him with Ozzie Smith (who is in):Tram:
2365 Hits, 185 HRs, 1003 RBis, 1231 Runs, 236 SBs, .285 AVG
1984 WS MVP
4 Gold Gloves
Oz:
2460 Hits, 28 HRs, 793 RBis, 1257 Runs, 580 SBa, .262 AVG
1985 NLCS MVP
13 Gold Gloves
Now the only two numbers that stand out for Oz are his Stolen Bases and his Gold Gloves. Trammell clearly played Gold Glove defense but he played in a league with Cal Ripken and Robin Yount so he didn't win the award as many times as he would have in different circumstances. Now to the stolen bases, I would submit that a stolen base is only worth something when it allows you to score a run you otherwise would not have. Trammell's lower number of stolen bases clearly didn't prevent him from crossing home plate almost as often as Ozzie did.
So what keeps Ozzie in and Trammell out? Is it that Trammell quietly went out on the field and did his job while Ozzie did back flips? That's the only reason I can find and I find it a clear shame to keep Trammell out. Take nothing away from Ozzie. He was indeed excellent.
barterer2002
By comparison Trammell posted a 4.47 range factor at a time when the league average was 4.09.
Essentially what this means is that Ozzie made one extra play every game while Trammell made an extra play every other game. Its a little more than just doing back flips.
January 09, 2008 at 10:10PM View BBCode
Ozzie Smith had a career range factor of 5.03 at a time when the league average was 4.10.By comparison Trammell posted a 4.47 range factor at a time when the league average was 4.09.
Essentially what this means is that Ozzie made one extra play every game while Trammell made an extra play every other game. Its a little more than just doing back flips.
mr1313
January 09, 2008 at 10:20PM View BBCode
Still a guy like Ozzie Smith would have a damn hard time getting into the hall these days, and in the future, how many times do you see players getting in on defense alone. 1313
barterer2002
January 10, 2008 at 12:09AM View BBCode
Including Ozzie and not including catchers I'd say two. Ozzie and Bill Mazerowski
DwightKSchrute
Good info, would you say that Ozzie belongs and Trammell doesn't?
January 10, 2008 at 01:46AM View BBCode
Originally posted by barterer2002
Ozzie Smith had a career range factor of 5.03 at a time when the league average was 4.10.
By comparison Trammell posted a 4.47 range factor at a time when the league average was 4.09.
Essentially what this means is that Ozzie made one extra play every game while Trammell made an extra play every other game. Its a little more than just doing back flips.
Good info, would you say that Ozzie belongs and Trammell doesn't?
whiskybear
Ozzie Smith was elected to the Hall in 2002.
[Edited on 1-10-2008 by whiskybear]
January 10, 2008 at 02:00AM View BBCode
Originally posted by mr1313
Still a guy like Ozzie Smith would have a damn hard time getting into the hall these days, and in the future, how many times do you see players getting in on defense alone. 1313
Ozzie Smith was elected to the Hall in 2002.
[Edited on 1-10-2008 by whiskybear]
BobbyGrich
I also like the Hawk, Andre Dawson. He is a member of the elite 400HR, 300 SB club, MVP in 87, he was a top performer during his era.
January 10, 2008 at 02:38AM View BBCode
Yes, do not badmouth the Wizard. He was a stud on defense, far more than a circus act who did backflips. His defense was amazing. He could have been worse on offense and still deserved a spot in the hall.I also like the Hawk, Andre Dawson. He is a member of the elite 400HR, 300 SB club, MVP in 87, he was a top performer during his era.
mr1313
January 10, 2008 at 02:49AM View BBCode
Ozzie's flashiness made us believe he was better then he really was. 1313
BobbyGrich
January 10, 2008 at 02:52AM View BBCode
thank you bobcat, and what do you mean 1313? Bart posted numbers that show Ozzie was superior.
mr1313
January 10, 2008 at 02:52AM View BBCode
Chirist if you let a .262 lifetime hitter with an obp of .337 get in the hall, Rice and the Hawk should be autofuckingmatic. 1313
mr1313
January 10, 2008 at 02:55AM View BBCode
bart can throw all the numbers he want at me, you can make any numbers say what you want, the botton line is lifetime avg. .262 lifetime obp .337.
BobbyGrich
[Edited on 1-10-2008 by BobbyGrich]
January 10, 2008 at 02:56AM View BBCode
I know a lot of you guys are college kids, did you see Ozzie play? You discount Bart's numbers, then post your own???[Edited on 1-10-2008 by BobbyGrich]
FuriousGiorge
That's....retarded.
January 10, 2008 at 03:06AM View BBCode
Originally posted by mr1313
Chirist if you let a .262 lifetime hitter with an obp of .337 get in the hall, Rice and the Hawk should be autofuckingmatic. 1313
That's....retarded.
FuriousGiorge
January 10, 2008 at 03:20AM View BBCode
No, that you're comparing the hitting numbers of a shortstop inducted mostly for his glove with two left fielders.
rkinslow19
Still a guy like Ozzie Smith would have a damn hard time getting into the hall these days, and in the future, how many times do you see players getting in on defense alone. 1313 [/quote]
Omar Vizquel?
11 gold gloves, highest fielding percentage at SS ever.
But career hitting stats are meager: .274, 77 HR, 2598 H, 280 SB
January 10, 2008 at 03:36AM View formatted
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[quote][i]Originally posted by mr1313[/i]
Still a guy like Ozzie Smith would have a damn hard time getting into the hall these days, and in the future, how many times do you see players getting in on defense alone. 1313 [/quote]
Omar Vizquel?
11 gold gloves, highest fielding percentage at SS ever.
But career hitting stats are meager: .274, 77 HR, 2598 H, 280 SB
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