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barterer2002
I've been watching the debates and there are many of the issues that bother me. There is a jingoistic, fear based, isolationist trend in our national politics that bothers me. Its clearly not merely the canidates but also the nation at large that has these feelings. The mere question as to whether we should have a national language is somewhat repulsive to me. The idea that we need to seal our borders to keep people out (much like is done in other nations of the world) bothers me.
I worry about our civilization. So much of our citizenry appears ready to sacrifice our freedoms in the name of safety. It makes me wonder how long we'll continue to have them.
On the other hand I wonder about the inate power of democracies to survive. In general they give way to strong dictatorships in the name of safety (see e.g. Ancient Rome). I also wonder whether its necessarily a bad thing for the world.
In the middle ages different city states around the world ruled small areas of what would later become, France, Italy, Germany, Japan and China. These city-states became nation states by being joined together under strong leaders. I am sure that the next step won't be taken within my life time nor will it occur during my children's lifetime but I do wonder how long it takes.
Anyway, I'm interested in some of the other ideas that may be out there, particualy those who will tell me that I'm crazy and that isolationism is the greatest foreign policy ever known. I'd like to know why someone would think that way so would welcome the education (hopefully in a respectful manner)
Where is America heading?
June 11, 2007 at 02:35AM View BBCode
I'm not sure if this thread will stay open or will be closed rapidly but I'm hopeful to hear some thoughts. This is one of the more eccletic groups of people politically that I've associated myself with and wanted to get some other thoughts.I've been watching the debates and there are many of the issues that bother me. There is a jingoistic, fear based, isolationist trend in our national politics that bothers me. Its clearly not merely the canidates but also the nation at large that has these feelings. The mere question as to whether we should have a national language is somewhat repulsive to me. The idea that we need to seal our borders to keep people out (much like is done in other nations of the world) bothers me.
I worry about our civilization. So much of our citizenry appears ready to sacrifice our freedoms in the name of safety. It makes me wonder how long we'll continue to have them.
On the other hand I wonder about the inate power of democracies to survive. In general they give way to strong dictatorships in the name of safety (see e.g. Ancient Rome). I also wonder whether its necessarily a bad thing for the world.
In the middle ages different city states around the world ruled small areas of what would later become, France, Italy, Germany, Japan and China. These city-states became nation states by being joined together under strong leaders. I am sure that the next step won't be taken within my life time nor will it occur during my children's lifetime but I do wonder how long it takes.
Anyway, I'm interested in some of the other ideas that may be out there, particualy those who will tell me that I'm crazy and that isolationism is the greatest foreign policy ever known. I'd like to know why someone would think that way so would welcome the education (hopefully in a respectful manner)
ScooterPie
scooter
June 11, 2007 at 11:32AM View BBCode
I'll start us off with a simple: meh, we'll swing back the other way soon enough.scooter
kannc6
June 11, 2007 at 12:01PM View BBCode
scoot, while there may be some rebound... the general trend is toward a loss of civil liberties in the name of safety. This is a dangerous trend. When we have our next national crisis (and we will) I fear even more will be lost.
ShaggySanchez
June 11, 2007 at 01:53PM View BBCode
Paris Hilton going to jail, getting out of jail, and going back to jail has been the #1 news story for the better part of a week. This should give you a clue on where America is heading.
DW_Geoff
- Any man could be president
Unlikely now, not with the money involved and the old boys club of both parties.
- All men are created equal.
The gap between rich and poor is staggering, Land ownership is becoming futher out of reach.
In fact these are trends towards Imperialism, combined with the limited freedoms. In fact the US is one Ceaser away from being Rome, one president who can get the FDR presidential extention, and stay!
The US was once the fittest most innovative country. KArl Benz invented the Auto, but Henry Ford brought it to the masses. If that happened today there would be all sorts of measures taken to protect the horse and buggy industry.
In the Western sense we are in grave danger. We are obese because we work 8-10 hours in the office, commute for 2-4 more, eat on the run and barely move.
When women entered the work force it took less than half a generation to make families poorer not richer then before. The western world should have took that time to adopt more worker friendly policies, like 28 hour work weeks...but instead the first few years were gravy and then the inflationary pressures squashed the two income household
June 11, 2007 at 02:09PM View BBCode
Naturally I am from the outside looking in, but the principals that built your great nation are eroding.- Any man could be president
Unlikely now, not with the money involved and the old boys club of both parties.
- All men are created equal.
The gap between rich and poor is staggering, Land ownership is becoming futher out of reach.
In fact these are trends towards Imperialism, combined with the limited freedoms. In fact the US is one Ceaser away from being Rome, one president who can get the FDR presidential extention, and stay!
The US was once the fittest most innovative country. KArl Benz invented the Auto, but Henry Ford brought it to the masses. If that happened today there would be all sorts of measures taken to protect the horse and buggy industry.
In the Western sense we are in grave danger. We are obese because we work 8-10 hours in the office, commute for 2-4 more, eat on the run and barely move.
When women entered the work force it took less than half a generation to make families poorer not richer then before. The western world should have took that time to adopt more worker friendly policies, like 28 hour work weeks...but instead the first few years were gravy and then the inflationary pressures squashed the two income household
FuriousGiorge
We are not special.
We are not unique.
We are not a beautiful rainbow that leads to a shiny pot of gold.
Processes are in motion as we speak that we are powerless to stop, that will lead to the end of the United States of America as we know it. It is the inevitable way of all things. We fight for what what we believe is good, and against what we believe is bad, and that is all we can do in the end.
June 11, 2007 at 04:54PM View BBCode
Why do people think that the idea of America lasting forever as currently constructed is a good thing? This is the 20th (and now 21st) century version of Manifest Destiny.We are not special.
We are not unique.
We are not a beautiful rainbow that leads to a shiny pot of gold.
Processes are in motion as we speak that we are powerless to stop, that will lead to the end of the United States of America as we know it. It is the inevitable way of all things. We fight for what what we believe is good, and against what we believe is bad, and that is all we can do in the end.
rollman1
my 3.14 cents...
I think Furious is dead on. BTW people do realize we look nothing economically, societally or politically like we did when some jokers threw some tea overboard right?
The fact that the review of the Sopranos has garnered more hits may help explain why the country is moving as it is...
June 11, 2007 at 11:09PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Why do people think that the idea of America lasting forever as currently constructed is a good thing? This is the 20th (and now 21st) century version of Manifest Destiny.
We are not special.
We are not unique.
We are not a beautiful rainbow that leads to a shiny pot of gold.
Processes are in motion as we speak that we are powerless to stop, that will lead to the end of the United States of America as we know it. It is the inevitable way of all things. We fight for what what we believe is good, and against what we believe is bad, and that is all we can do in the end.
my 3.14 cents...
I think Furious is dead on. BTW people do realize we look nothing economically, societally or politically like we did when some jokers threw some tea overboard right?
The fact that the review of the Sopranos has garnered more hits may help explain why the country is moving as it is...
FuriousGiorge
Who the hell wants to talk about some heavy shit like this, anyway? Where's America heading? Into Karl Rove's colon, that's where.
June 11, 2007 at 11:59PM View BBCode
I knew it was only a matter of time before that was brought up.Who the hell wants to talk about some heavy shit like this, anyway? Where's America heading? Into Karl Rove's colon, that's where.
rollman1
June 12, 2007 at 01:50AM View BBCode
Pointing out that the country has always been in flux, or the Sopranos comment? Or, maybe both.
FuriousGiorge
Here's some iconoclasm for you - this country, as a whole, is more well-informed and in tune with the news at this moment in time than at any point in its history. The problem doesn't lie with the people, it lies with the power structures that seem increasingly immutable to most Americans. That's a function of the increasing importance of money, but also simply the increasing population of this country - that's just math, the more people here, the less any one person can actually do to change things. And as our government entrenches itself further and further, it becomes stuck in a positive feedback loop. Power begets power.
Ideas are worth saving, and citizenry doesn't simply disappear, but governments are fleeting entities that sometimes need to be pruned.
June 12, 2007 at 03:34AM View BBCode
The Sopranos comment.Here's some iconoclasm for you - this country, as a whole, is more well-informed and in tune with the news at this moment in time than at any point in its history. The problem doesn't lie with the people, it lies with the power structures that seem increasingly immutable to most Americans. That's a function of the increasing importance of money, but also simply the increasing population of this country - that's just math, the more people here, the less any one person can actually do to change things. And as our government entrenches itself further and further, it becomes stuck in a positive feedback loop. Power begets power.
Ideas are worth saving, and citizenry doesn't simply disappear, but governments are fleeting entities that sometimes need to be pruned.
rollman1
Money, or rather economical wealth has always been the driver; I do not feel this is new.
June 12, 2007 at 05:45AM View BBCode
I agree with the "overall more well informed" comment, and yes it took fewer people to effect change in the past. As a proxy (I will check tomorrow unless someone beats me to it) it would be interesting to see how the age demographics of voters have changed. People use terms like the MTV generation, etc. I wonder if that 18-25 or 26-33 or 34-45 or whatever age groups vote more or less then they did in yesteryear as a proxy for "true caring" about effecting change within the system we have had for some time.Money, or rather economical wealth has always been the driver; I do not feel this is new.
DougB
But lets be honest. What's popular runs a democratic republic. That means there is no one to blame but the collective "us". Otherwise you sound like my wife when she complains about objectification of women yet she watches America's Top Model and reads People magazine.
June 12, 2007 at 06:07PM View BBCode
Its not easy to govern when there is little common ground between groups that grow farther apart. We have red states, blue states... we have Jesusland, and The United States of Liberalism. So then polititians govern based on what is popular to try and hang onto their slim majority. And they slip in riders quietly on bills to satisfy the private sector that buys them off. That way they can buy ads and get re-elected. And if an unpopular rider gets exposed every legislator runs from it like roaches when the light is turned on.But lets be honest. What's popular runs a democratic republic. That means there is no one to blame but the collective "us". Otherwise you sound like my wife when she complains about objectification of women yet she watches America's Top Model and reads People magazine.
FuriousGiorge
June 12, 2007 at 06:18PM View BBCode
If only that were true. Our legal codes are so convoluted that most people probably know only a fraction of what our government can and cannot do. The CIA, as one example, is at this moment doing things around the globe that most of the American public would probably be outraged by, but they have a cover of secrecy that protects them.
rollman1
June 12, 2007 at 06:37PM View formatted
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"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to. "
FuriousGiorge
June 12, 2007 at 07:05PM View BBCode
And...then he gets court-martialed, because (in theory, at least) we don't allow people to run roughshod over the Constitution and basic human rights in the name of protecting us. Or at least, we didn't. Which brings us back to Bart's original point, that people seem more and more willing to give up their rights for the illusion of safety, and which brings me back to MY point that maybe a revolution wouldn't be so bad because it might allow us to go back to first principles and remove large swaths of the military-industrial complex which increasingly seem to do whatever they damn well please and the Constitution can go fuck itself.
rollman1
I am not necessarily speaking of certain dispicable (in my mind) actions of the current administration, but the talk of the military/industrial complex taking over the country predates Bush.
June 12, 2007 at 07:11PM View BBCode
Do you think it is increasingly doing it? Or that we have the illusion that that change is happening because of a better flow of information?I am not necessarily speaking of certain dispicable (in my mind) actions of the current administration, but the talk of the military/industrial complex taking over the country predates Bush.
FuriousGiorge
But it's not just increased information. Our country has turned from an isolationist one to an interventionist one, and with that comes both the susceptibility to attack, and the desire of our military to fight back in increasingly brutal ways. At the very least, the CIA as it exists now did not exist prior to the 20th century, and the operations it carries out in the name of the United States are something altogether new.
June 12, 2007 at 07:27PM View BBCode
I don't know. It's an interesting concept to consider. But public perception has to be seen as a tangible thing in a democracy - as the public is given more information about what its government does in the name of safety, it is imperative on those in power to scale those things back. Whether our military has always done these things is somewhat irrelevant, because if the American people didn't know about it then it didn't really have an effect on how we are governed.But it's not just increased information. Our country has turned from an isolationist one to an interventionist one, and with that comes both the susceptibility to attack, and the desire of our military to fight back in increasingly brutal ways. At the very least, the CIA as it exists now did not exist prior to the 20th century, and the operations it carries out in the name of the United States are something altogether new.
kaliayev
New? Compared to what? We became a "super power" at the end of WWII. In less than 200 years of excistence we became the most dominate state in history. Our foreign policy went immediately from the Monroe Doctrine to an unspecified Pax Americana. We don't have a clue as to what to do with this new found power, hence all the fuck ups. As for the CIA nothing "new" is going on there. Since its inception it has been knee deep in scary shit.
June 13, 2007 at 03:12AM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Our country has turned from an isolationist one to an interventionist one, and with that comes both the susceptibility to attack, and the desire of our military to fight back in increasingly brutal ways. At the very least, the CIA as it exists now did not exist prior to the 20th century, and the operations it carries out in the name of the United States are something altogether new.
New? Compared to what? We became a "super power" at the end of WWII. In less than 200 years of excistence we became the most dominate state in history. Our foreign policy went immediately from the Monroe Doctrine to an unspecified Pax Americana. We don't have a clue as to what to do with this new found power, hence all the fuck ups. As for the CIA nothing "new" is going on there. Since its inception it has been knee deep in scary shit.
Duff77
We seem to act as if the fact that we're a superpower is a good thing. I think ultimately it can lead to a very destructive form of blindness and is well on the way to doing so. True of anything: Confidence is only beneficial when it coincides with a realistic awareness of ones failings and limitations. If it blinds you to your failings and limitations, it can be a fatal disease.
I think we're living in a nation--and in some ways have always been living in a nation--where two diametrically opposed but equally well-meaning groups have been "looking out" for the best interests of the people, most of whom are blind to the finer points of politics and vote for the guy with the best catchphrase and/or haircut. Largely I think it's a fault of the human genome. We're naturally attracted to bright, shiny political objects. That's why there's always been more warfare than middle-ground, and I don't see that changing. Not only is the other guy wrong, he is a plague on human happiness that must be slain at all costs.
There's a certain sex appeal to big, bold, shallow convictions that ignore their own logical inconsistencies. It'll be the downfall of the whole race someday.
June 17, 2007 at 04:35AM View BBCode
Isn't there something of a history of imperial empires going by the wayside, generally due to an arrogance which blinds them to their vulnerabilities? I'm thinking Rome, England...We seem to act as if the fact that we're a superpower is a good thing. I think ultimately it can lead to a very destructive form of blindness and is well on the way to doing so. True of anything: Confidence is only beneficial when it coincides with a realistic awareness of ones failings and limitations. If it blinds you to your failings and limitations, it can be a fatal disease.
I think we're living in a nation--and in some ways have always been living in a nation--where two diametrically opposed but equally well-meaning groups have been "looking out" for the best interests of the people, most of whom are blind to the finer points of politics and vote for the guy with the best catchphrase and/or haircut. Largely I think it's a fault of the human genome. We're naturally attracted to bright, shiny political objects. That's why there's always been more warfare than middle-ground, and I don't see that changing. Not only is the other guy wrong, he is a plague on human happiness that must be slain at all costs.
There's a certain sex appeal to big, bold, shallow convictions that ignore their own logical inconsistencies. It'll be the downfall of the whole race someday.
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